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2v2 Teams Tournament

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2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:01 pm

.
Attention: Tournament signups have closed!!

Hey guys! I'm keeping this comment up-to-date in the edit section below but I'm leaving the rest here for the benefit of the readers.

As you are probably aware, theether recently started a small tournament for interested players where all the players had to choose Grimm. I personally have found it fun so far and only one game is finished.

EDIT: Okay, so a lot has changed since this was originally posted so I'm going to intervene here. I'll leave the rest of the original post in tact for posterity in this spoiler and below I'll continue with the new information.

Spoiler for Posterity:
Since it was so much fun, BountyFrog and I (mostly BountyFrog with my help) have decided to organize a tournament of 4p games. The plan I think is to have the games be FoW, but if we have a big push for no fog we can always do without it. What we aren't really sure about yet is how exactly to organize it and what the rules should be. For example, here are some potential options:

FFA games: With no/limited diplomacy/truces with other players to reduce the odds of people getting ganged up on? Advancement through the tournament might be based on a point system with the first player out in any game is eliminated and the next group are ranked based on position? Potential to instead just keep the top 2 finishers of each game and maybe favor someone with a 1st place vs a 2nd place in the cases of draws etc? Keeping only the winner of each match would mean we need a lot of people so I don't think that's realistic.

Team games: With teams, the advancement options are pretty well limited to the winning team and diplomacy isn't an issue. The real question is, if we go with the team game approach, do we keep fixed teams or do partners change based on some sort of ranking system (who did well and who didn't etc) so that they are balanced somewhat after every round. Also, if we have it open to anyone on the street (so to speak) what happens if a team member gets booted? Do we find a new player and rematch?

Regardless, I think resigning is unfair unless it is either down to 2P in an FFA setting, or both members of a team agree to resign.

If you don't already know, the plan was to arrange a fun, multiplayer, FoW tournament and this topic is to discuss player interest and potential rules. For those of you who were following along from the beginning, BountyFrog no longer has any involvement due to his extended inactivity on both this forum and AWBW. I will no longer be participating in the tournament myself, acting solely as the organizer. The discussion is spoilered below for length and because I will not keep it up to date. You can read if you so desire, but all of the relevant and updated information will be kept under the "Current Tournament Rules and Settings" heading, below.

Spoiler for Length:
I'd personally prefer this to be a teams tournament so unless anyone has major objections, consider this to be for 2-player Teams! I'd also prefer to have teams randomly selected from all participants for the sake of being fair, but that still leaves 2 options:


  1. You get the same (randomly assigned) teammate every game
  2. New, random teammates are assigned with each new game

Due to general lack of players, a round robin is probably best to start (maybe 3-5 games?) so I was thinking of implementing Option 2 for the round robin and getting some stats built up, and then effectively generating more permanent teams for elimination based on seed. Players with the best record would be paired with players with worse records, but, as incentive for landing a higher seed, those with the best records after the round robin get to decide the maps for the tournament (like homefield advantage). At each elimination match, the highest seed player in that match picks the map unless there is a tie. At that point, the highest combined team seed wins and that team has to agree on the map. Normally the higher ranked player does not need to consult their teammate, but here it would be mandatory to reach a team decision; if a timely decision is not made, an automatic deferral to the opposing team would be implemented. For maps, I would probably provide some general constraints on size and funding but more or less leave the player the freedom to pick at will (pending my approval, of course).

On booting and resigning: All players must take their turns in a timely manner and avoid being booted and all resignations must be a team decision. A warning will be issued to any player in violation of this rule and any player that gets booted or inappropriately resigns more than once can be ejected from the tournament. I would posit that any match in which a player is booted or a player resigns prematurely/without their partner's consent should result in a loss for that player and a draw for the remaining 3, unless there was a clear victor at the point of boot/resignation. During elimination rounds things will be more complicated and I will probably take things on a case-by-case basis should problems arise at that point.

Anyway, feel free to discuss or debate any of this up until the point that the tournament starts. Remember, I want it to be a tournament that people want to play in, so tell me what you like!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- EDIT --------- Current Tournament Rules and Settings --------- EDIT ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Attention: Tournament signups have closed!!

Players:

  • blanci1
  • Everdan
  • insignia21
  • Kamuscha
  • Madd Maxx
  • MorganLeah
  • Nyvelion
  • Sneggid
  • TacticsCommand
  • the-deadly-shadow
  • theether

Tournament Rules and Layout:

  1. 3-5 game round robin
  2. Player seeding based on round robin
  3. Elimination rounds based on the number of players

    • 8-11 Players- Top 8 seeds continue to elimination
    • 12-15 Players- Top 12 seeds continue to elimination; teams with top two seeds have a first round bye
    • 16+ Players- Top 16 seeds continue to elimination
    • Highest seed will always be paired with seed just below half, 2nd seed with 2nd below half, etc. (eg: for 8 players, elimination round teams are seeds 1&5, 2&6, 3&7, 4&8 )

Tournament winners will be determined as follows:

  • 1st- Highest seed on winning team
  • 2nd- Lowest seed on winning team
  • 3rd- Highest seed on 2nd place team
  • 4th- Lowest seed on 2nd place team

Note that the top half of the players are always paired with a lower seed and, therefore, they will always take 1st if their team wins. In other words, you must place in the top half of players after the round robin to have the potential to win 1st place!


The following rules are in effect on booting and resigning*:
  • All players must take their turns in a timely manner and avoid being booted and all resignations must be a team decision.
  • A warning will be issued to any player in violation of the boot/resignation rule; subsequent violations will result in ejection from the tournament.
  • Any match in which a player is booted or resigns prematurely/without their partner's consent will result in a loss for the offending player and a draw for the remaining 3, unless there was a clear victor at the point of boot/resignation.
*During elimination rounds, violations and penalties will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to minimize complications.


Tournament Game Settings:

  • Funds: 1000
  • Weather: Random
  • Fog: On
  • Teams: On (2v2 as discussed above)
  • Boot/AET: 4/4
  • Round Robin Maps: One map per round from list below; all players have the same maps
  • Elimination Round Maps: Highest seed player in each game selects game map- subject to rules below

Map Candidates for Round Robin:
TBD

Map Requirements for Elimination Rounds (Incomplete):

  • Must be well-designed/balanced for competitive gameplay
  • Must be suitable for 2v2 Team Play
  • Max size is approx. 30x30
  • Will be subject to CO and unit bans decided by tournament organizer
  • Any map can be rejected at tournament organizer's discretion


Last edited by Xmo5 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:31 pm; edited 18 times in total

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  theether on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:37 pm

Isn't it weird if the organizers play in their own tournament? Suspect  Laughing 

Awesome of you to organize it, though

I'd favor teams over diplomacy.
No reason, it's just a preference.
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:49 pm

Yeah, but we're hurting for people with a tournament like this. Plus the maps and everything are open to suggestions and known ahead of time to players so I don't think we'd have any distinct advantage in that way. (Unless I'm missing something)

Also, I favor teams over diplomacy which is why you'd have to make a rule like "no diplomacy" for any FFA games. How do you think we should handle the player advancement after each match?

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  theether on Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:17 pm

Well, it's alright I guess Smile 

I'm not sure about how to advance players.
Putting them in teams based on a rating might create bad blood (and one usually can't rate himself properly)
Also, you'd kind of punish the better player for putting them together with worse players.
So, maybe randomly chose fixed teams before starting the tournament?
Or let the players chose teams themselves.

Also, fixed teams make the rounds feel less random and you can plan ahead more.
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  sulla on Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:33 pm

Is blanci still about?

Can I offer some maps?


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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:35 pm

Absolutely! Keep in mind that for the sake of balance (it is a tournament) I'd really only consider maps that have:

  • No silos (very rare cases that I would consider them appropriate)
  • No important properties midway between opposing players (or otherwise highly contested)
  • No pre-deployed units (except FTA counter as needed)
  • 2 or fewer towers per player (preferably 1 or 0)
  • And the obvious fact that it must be a balanced, 4 player map

Some preferable characteristics would be:

  • Well balanced/varied terrain for both direct/indirect unit strengths/weaknesses
  • Playable by a wide range of COs
  • Limited viability of infantry/mech spam
  • Multiple fronts with contested properties that draw the battle to wider ranges of the map

theether wrote: Putting them in teams based on a rating might create bad blood (and one usually can't rate himself properly)
Also, you'd kind of punish the better player for putting them together with worse players.
So, maybe randomly chose fixed teams before starting the tournament?

Agreed. I think fixed teams probably is the best idea based on that. We will need 16 players then, 4 first round games, 2 second round games, and a final third round game. Plus, if people want, the winning teammates can have a 1v1 championship match too.  king queen

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  sulla on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:14 am

http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=63992


This keeps on happening when I create new maps!

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:35 am

Yeah, that's happening to everyone. See this topic.

Supposedly if you use an external editor (like Headphone's) and upload it to the site, it will work, but you can't ever edit that map on AWBW or it will have that glitch again. Also, last I checked, none of the external editors I knew about were functional (or they don't exist anymore)

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  sulla on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:58 am

So you haven't got a link then? Sad

What a shame, no more map making for me.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:59 am

Nope, sorry, nothing I can do unless you want to make maps that are like 18 x 18


Also, I updated the tournament information in the first comment.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Myroc on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:51 pm

Xmo5 wrote:but you can't ever edit that map on AWBW or it will have that glitch again. Also, last I checked, none of the external editors I knew about were functional (or they don't exist anymore)
You can edit the map, but your edits past the 333rd tile simply will not register, and will stay the same as when you first uploaded the map. The bug doesn't nuke tiles into ocean, it just prevents them from being edited.

I may join into this tournament. Maybe.
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:56 pm

Oh okay, cool. That makes sense considering the default map gets filled with ocean so if you uploaded something that wasn't ocean to begin with, it would just revert it back to what it was when it was uploaded instead. Much better, for sure.

Also, feel free to join, we need about 5 more players!

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Blanci on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:50 pm

So i guess with AWBW going down for a while that this tourney thing got waylaid.

A couple of suggestions:

I didnt even notice this thread until now... really it belongs in a "tournament sub-forum" like we had previously.

2v2 team games should be tried first as less problems.

For example For round 1 : All pairs should play on the following map in FOG
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=32499

if we dont do elimination ( its not nice anyway) then we dont need to wait to get 8 or 16 pairs as in a traditional knockout.
We just make up enough maps for all present and a few more in public in case some random players wish to join late.  When quite a few games have finished or after 2 months (or 3?) all unfinished games will be called to < stop and be judged by a couple of independant experienced players.  3 points are given to each player on winning teams, 2 for draw and 1 for loss.
For the next round a new 2v2 map can be suggested by a different participating player giving priority to those with higher points. Or higher average scores.
As well as individual scores we shall also track particular pairing scores and note an average to position in ordered list. Players may keep same partner or  change , it wont matter. After several rounds the tourney should be re-appraised in light of progress to that moment. Eg. it may be deemed time to put the top 2 pairs into a last show final . Or someone may come up with some nice way to finish off.. or perhaps keep going with more rounds.

when a bunch of people play simultaneously on a new map it generates a lot of community debate and theorising about CO choice etc, All good fun.

Maybe we can just do this.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:24 am

That's not a bad idea, though I'm not sure how many games everyone will want to play on the same map simultaneously.

All of these AWBW problems really did put a damper on things here- I forgot about it completely to be honest.

Oh and another idea to make things more fair and to go more smoothly- loss by being booted is either 0 or -1 point so its worse than just losing. Maybe even make first boot loss a 0 as a warning and then all subsequent boots are -1. Win by boot might be worth only a +2 as well considering it isn't the same value as winning a full on match. On the contrary, if an opposing player resigns very early on, that is still worth +3 because it was a conscious decision by the opponent to concede the match.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  theether on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:49 am

Xmo5 wrote:That's not a bad idea, though I'm not sure how many games everyone will want to play on the same map simultaneously.
As I understand it, there's no need for anybody to play on the same map more than once.

Your's and Blanci's suggestions sound good to me. Especially the point penalty for booting. I'd still consider giving the winner +3 points if the result is clear. This would have to be judged by the same people that judge unfinished games after 3 months.

I just noticed you plan on using random weather, btw. Is that a good idea for competitive play?
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Iordor on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:38 am

I'm interested if there's still room, and time to join. Thanks. Smile
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:24 pm

Sure! The tournament hasn't gotten off the ground yet, so I'm not sure how many of these people are still interested.

I wish I'd had more time to follow through with this sooner but I've been mostly inactive here for the last couple months due to my wedding/honeymoon/associated prep work. I also started matches on sites with similar games which are still taking up a lot of time. Other miscellaneous responsibilities have been keeping my busy too so I've basically dropped the ball on this one so far.

I guess I should start by reviewing where we are and what players are still interested in being involved. Once that's done I'll plan to actually put the finishing touches on planning and then start it. I'll probably get to that sometime this week, but for now I'll add you to the list of interested players.

Thanks for reminding me about this!

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  theether on Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:29 pm

I'm still interested.
No need to hurry, though
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Everdan on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:50 am

Is it too late to indicate my interest Razz sounds quite fun actually!

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:13 am

Everdan wrote:Is it too late to indicate my interest

Well, considering the fact that we never actually played this, I'd say it certainly isn't! On the other hand, I'm not sure how many of these people are still interested. I'm willing to actually follow through this time (I'm not as busy as I was previously) but we should probably take a roll call and see's who's still around and wants to play. (That's the hint for everybody to come rushing back to this thread and resubmit their name) If I don't hear from some people, I'll send PMs on AWBW, just in case they don't see this.


I'll probably take my name out of the hat because I have more AWBW responsibilities than before, now that I'm on the Map Committee. That, coincidentally, puts me in a great position to organize the tournament etc. so hopefully if we get enough people, this should actually get of the ground  Laughing

Also, in response to:

theether wrote:Isn't it weird if the organizers play in their own tournament?

It looks like I'm not longer participating and BountyFrog has been inactive for months both here and on AWBW so that solves that Razz

I'll also probably be modifying the map choices slightly, but, as before, I'm open to suggestions for maps, rules, etc.

Now lets see who we can get interested!

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Blanci on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:13 am

If you really want people interested you might consider a bring a map tourney. First come first served. Only justifiably terrible maps should be excluded.

I like all of your proposed settings. With preferably 2v2.
xmo5 wrote:
Funds: 1000
Weather: Random
Fog: On
Teams: On (Random, or should people pick?)
Boot/AET: 4/4
Map: One map per round

Just let whoever join games on 1 map per round however they wish .
Next round have winners play winners pairings where possible, but also allow losers and drawers to also continue why not. Don't worry about leader board stuff until several rounds have finished successfully. 2v2games are already enough fun we don't really need much more motivation than that plus fun maps and conditions to get moving with this. Keep it simple and fun.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  InvincibleXI on Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:23 pm

If this is still on I'd be interested in joining too Smile

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Sneggid on Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm

I too would be interested in joining this if it gets off the ground Smile

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  theether on Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:39 am

I'll have more free time soon, so I'll join again ^^
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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

Post  Xmo5 on Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:13 am

Great! Glad to see there's still some interest. I'll update my first post to include the 5 of you as participants and everyone else listed as a "maybe". I'll send some PMs to figure out which of the maybes are still interested and while I'm waiting for responses I'll try and firm up rules to the tourney.

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Re: 2v2 Teams Tournament

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