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Fixing Weather

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Would you use weather if it was like I described?

27% 27% 
[ 3 ]
27% 27% 
[ 3 ]
36% 36% 
[ 4 ]
9% 9% 
[ 1 ]
 
Total Votes : 11

Fixing Weather

Post  theether on Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:01 pm

The weather option in AWBW is almost never used, and for good reasons:
1. It's very random
2. It has strong influence on the game
3. It favors certain COs (Olaf during snow, Drake during Rain)

I can live with the last one, but the other two are problematic.

It's very random
The problem with randomness is that you can't safely plan ahead. Might not be a problem in an action platformer, but in a strategy game, it's the worst mechanic you can build in.
Randomness can still be ok and might even make the game more interesting. But it shouldn't be game deciding, then. Evil or Very Mad 
Which brings us to point 2:

It has strong influence on the game
Your opponent decides to attack you.
Your units are taking quite some damage, but there are enough unharmed units in the back of your defense to retaliate.
He miscalculated, you can turn this around! He ends his turn and
Snow

The sudden weather change just made you lose the game, because now your units can't move far enough to attack. You can't even move away your exposed indirects.
That's because snow basically halves your movement.

Another example would be the capture phase: Your Infantry has to move over a mountain in order to capture your third base (your opponent already started capturing his). But due to sudden rain or snow, you can't actually move your unit far enough. Giving your opponent a money and unit advantage early on.

My suggestions for fixing it:
Point 2 is simple: Integrate a weather forecast! sunny 
By that I mean that every player can see the weather changes a few rounds before they actually happen.
That way you can coordinate your turns to fit the introduced randomness, instead of being constantly surprised by it.

For point 3 it would be enough to reduce the severity of the movement reduction.
How about reducing movement points by 30% for snow (rounding up) and 20% for rain, Instead of increasing movement cost for almost every tile?
That way Infantry wouldn't be influenced at all, while your other units aren't too disabled.
For the first few rounds there shouldn't be weather changes at all.

Thank you for taking the time to read through all this. <3
What do you think?
Would my suggestions make the weather option enjoyable for you?
Maybe you have different solutions for the problem?
Please tell me what you think about it. Smile
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Bountyfrog on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:13 pm

I like the idea of the weather forecast, but i think that 3rd point is changing the AW aspect of it too much...
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Nyvelion on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:11 pm

The problem with weather is that if you glitch it to say anything other than Clear, Snow, Rain, or Random, it prevents units from being moved at all, since the default movement cost for all terrain is apparently infinity until proper weather info is loaded. Annoying, because if I want it to say "Weather: Yes" or "Weather: Whether" or "Weather: Cats and Dogs" or "Weather: Much worse because climate change is a very real thing according to real scientists", then we can't enjoy the game and have the unique weather text at the same time.
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  theether on Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:03 am

Bountyfrog wrote:I like the idea of the weather forecast, but i think that 3rd point is changing the AW aspect of it too much...
It would be enough to reduce the movement cost increase during weather. Especially for Infantry and Mechs.
The forecast alone isn't enough, because your capture phase could still be messed up if weather prevents you from following the optimal path.

Nyvelion wrote:The problem with weather is that it can be glitched
Fixed that for you Wink 
Can't units be moved at all, or would it work, if you exclusively moved over properties? I'm asking because properties are handled separately from other terrain sometimes.
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Bountyfrog on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:20 am

But still, if you don't like it being random and maybe messing up your plans, then just don't play it with random weather.
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  theether on Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:40 pm

I don't hate randomness per se, but it should never be game deciding, in my opinion.
That's why, yes, I'm currently not playing games with weather.
I can't be happy about winning by chance. (Losing by chance is even worse Evil or Very Mad )

On the other hand, I can see that weather breaks up the monotony of a game and increases the amount of meaningful strategies.
Games can be more interesting, if there's an option for slight environmental randomness.
I just can't picture this happening with the current system, hence my suggestions.
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  sulla on Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:53 am

How about broken 5's vs olaf in the snow games? That would be interesting! lolol

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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Blanci on Sun May 18, 2014 8:22 am

Some kind of Weather forcast is a nice idea, and represents reality a bit more. Could be nice to try out if AW ever gets fully functional again.

Still, the normal sudden change can be okay if the map has enough complications... Eg plenty of different areas to fight over so that weather change randomness can be averaged out.
Also weather gives lesser players a fighting chance if they get lucky. Players in the current weather league just have to ride out the storm accepting the occassional loss due to unlucky weather.. And finally the best weather player should still rise to the top after many games.

Most things can be fun within the AW scope.

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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  sulla on Sun May 18, 2014 9:54 am

Random weather is a bit crap to be honest. I am not a big fan.

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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Xmo5 on Tue May 27, 2014 1:40 pm

My problem with weather is when you get to big multiplayer maps. When I play with a lot of people on random weather it feels like you get a very disproportionate number of turns with snow/rain and I have what I consider to be a fairly plausible theory as to why. If there is an x% chance of snow, the algorithm recalculates whether it will snow or not after every player (obviously) and then lasts a whole day. The percentage is not adjusted (or adjusted properly) for larger numbers of players so the more turns there are, the greater the chance of snow. To make it clear:

8 player game with an 10% chance of snow. (I don't know the actual percentage) Snow starts (on average) once every 10 turns of clear weather. This translates into snow on day 2, clear on day 3, snow halfway through day 4, clear on day 5.5-7, snow from day 7 to 8 etc. So each individual player gets snow about every other turn. (This assumes no rain, but I'm illustrating a point)
In contrast, a 2 player game with a 10% chance of snow means it snows every 5 days so each player gets 4 days clear and 1 day snow.

I would think it would make sense to take the total percent chance that it snows (say 10%) and divide by the number of players. For 2 players, its a 5% chance it snows any given turn (aka once every 20 turns=10 days) and for 8 players it would be 10/8 = 1.25% chance it snows any given day... which works out to *gasp* one snow every 80 turns=10 days! That means no matter how many players there are, you get an equal distribution of clear, rain, and snow.

I've had way too many experiences with this to think that it is already done this way, because some big games seem to have snow or rain almost every turn- sometimes it will snow 3-5 turns in a row for certain players (depending on when the weather cycle starts and stops) but this never happens to me in 2-4 player games. Anyone have insight here?

Oh, also, I agree that the weather forecast is a cool idea and probably more realistic. I'm undecided on the modified movement cost proposal; it has its positive and negative attributes.

EDIT: There are no poll options with which I completely agree so I didn't vote lol

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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  IPS on Sat May 02, 2015 9:30 am

I really don't like this weather at all, but I think it's fine that under-used CO's like Olaf and Drake get adventage over unfavorable weather for most CO's, mostly for the poor Olaf that is never chosen due he has no useful passives on normal games and only his SCOP is the only worth its power meter lenght.


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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Jackie Milton on Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:08 pm

I too think weather is underused and too game determining to really be valid. So for the sake of offering a new (hypothetical) option to consider: Give every CO a small advantage or disadvantage to specific types of weather.

To explain, only 2 COs currently have anything to do with weather (3 if you count Sturm), so why bother playing with random weather ever if only 2 COs can gain advantages? Obviously the concept of realism has come up, but it may simply break these COs in such a match.

So what exactly do I propose these "small advantages or disadvantages" are? Here are some plausible options and their relative strengths (cool names to be added later):
Rain+V: +1 vision in Rain +
Rain-V: -1 vision in Rain -
Rain+M: +1 movement in Rain ++
Rain+D: +10% Defense in Rain +++
Rain-A: -10% Attack in Rain --
Snow-V: -1 Vision in Snow -
Snow-H: -1HP All Units ---
Snow+M: +1 Movement in Snow ++
Snow+A: +10% Attack in Snow ++
And so forth...

Each CO need not an individual ability, but these are some options.

Explanation of disadvantage (and relative strength). In this sense, arguably more powerful COs would in some ways be balanced by weather with weather disadvantages. Ie. Kanbei's units all lose one HP is a pretty sick blow (not to mention the snow part)... On the other hand, arguably weaker COs -- Javier 0T, Jess, Koal -- might become more viable in these conditions.

In this system, Olaf and Drake still have their benefits, but this doesn't rule out other COs that might otherwise not be chosen.

Anyway. Just thoughts
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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  a9977321 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:27 am

I think the current weather system is fair enough. Since the bad weather lasts for a whole day, each player can be affected for one turn. When you find problem retreating, your enemy can feel the same. Random weather is just like luck. Yet it has a stronger effect on the whole battle. Rain(10%) affects the movement of vehicles and the vision range, while snow(5%) affects all units movement except the piperunners. If you want to put everything into calculation, you should turn off the random weather.
For weather wizards, they are not so powerful as we think. Olaf has big problems during rainy days and he does not have other d2d abilities. Drake seems to be good. But we all know that Drake is rarely chosen due to his weak air force, while air forces are much more usefil than navy in most cases. Weather wizards can be broken in rainy/snowy weather. But they are fine in random weather. So there is no need to give other co special weather abilities.
AWDS made some changes to the weather system. I don't know much about the rain, but I do know snow is greatly weakened and i don't think it work well.
Anyhow, I like the idea of having the weather forecast, which gives you time for preparations and using weather-specific strategies.

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Re: Fixing Weather

Post  Xmo5 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:42 am

Well, even with clear weather, Olaf's powers are not to be underestimated. He gains advantages similar to Eagle by changing the weather to snow because his movement is not hindered.

With that out of the way, I think one of the cool aspects of what Jackie was suggesting is that it would give a unique way of balancing COs in random weather. Whatever attributes and bonuses were given could be weighted such that the tier system could more more consolidated and currently weaker COs would have a chance to go up against high and top tier COs. Obviously it would be impossible to balance everyone entirely, but even getting rid of 1 tier would give a lot more variability in CO choice in a given match and there would be a lot more factors to calculate into your strategy, making gameplay richer as well.

Now, granted the use of random weather introduces the potential for wins based off of nothing but luck which kind of kills it with respect to the Global League, but that's not to say that this sort of a change wouldn't be fun and interesting to implement. Also, don't get me wrong, this would be soooo hard to balance effectively and would have to be trial and error (I mean, apart from the fact that it will probably forever reside in the realm of the hypothetical), but I think the rewards would potentially be worth the effort here.

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Re: Fixing Weather

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