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Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

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Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:38 pm

Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Global League is going to be going through some major changes in the coming weeks. This post should help to explain how and why.

Global League maps will be classified into one of two categories. Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps.


  • Persistent Maps - These maps will rarely be changed, edited, added or removed. These maps are for those who appreciate a consistent feel to the meta over 10 years of play, and have been designed generally to withstand the test of time. They have all stayed interesting and dynamic despite multiple massive meta shifts since their original releases. All of them offer a variety of strategy, but are tailored towards fast, competitive games. They offer a significant variety even between only 11 choices in maps between multiple commanders, multiple tiers for commanders, and multiple viable strategies even when using identical commanders. They are generally considered to be some of the best AWBW maps in AWBW history. This list will be changed very rarely, similar to how Ladder maps in Starcraft may stay the same for a year or more before changes are made, or how large changes in games like DotA 2 or League of Legends take place once every Season.

  • Rotation Maps - These maps will constantly and regularly be rotated into and out of the Global League. This list will likely be far larger than the Persistent Maps list at any given time. Some of these maps may never see the Global League. Some of these maps may be rotated into the Global League for months at a time. Rotation Maps will change on a regular basis.


The idea is to have a selection of Persistent Maps for a solid, consistent meta on those maps, but to additionally have more variety in Global League maps (within reason) to keep players on their toes using the Rotational Maps.

Persistent Maps

The current preliminary list of Persistent Maps, which is subject to change, is:

All Roads Lead to Sol
Aphotic Arena
Bel'Shir Beach
Beyond Eternity
Bible Black
Black Patch War
Blood on my Hands
Highway to Hell
Iconic
Shadows chase you endlessly
Shangri-La

This is a solid list of 11 maps that will likely not be removed any time in the foreseeable future. Again, it is currently subject to change, but will solidify over the next few days.

Rotation Maps

Any maps that were not mentioned on this list are currently on the Rotation Map list as we speak. Any of the other maps can potentially and will likely be added, removed, or re-added to the Global League in the future.

Any feedback is appreciated. This is a project I have been working on for the last few months on and off. This project is an effort to both appease parties who like the current Global League and those who want to see regular new content in the Global League.

Edit: Quick note for any newcomers, Best Sakuya NA and Mori2 from AWBW are the same person.


Last edited by Best Sakuya NA on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:00 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Blanci on Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:50 am

Sakuya Mori wrote:Any feedback is appreciated
Yes and I really think all league players should try to express their opinion.  Including players lower down the ratings as well.   Just because I am league leader I do not really think my opinion counts more than players at the bottom. In fact, perhaps the reverse. With diminishing player numbers we need to cater for newer and casual players more, to encourage next generation.  Their opinions on maps or whatever else related to league or AWBW is very important.  They really need to speak out more... people please dont be shy !

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  joeli50 on Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:17 am

support this plan
Rotation map let GL become more interesting as we will not always play on same map
i think the map Arcadepunk may not be good for Persistent Maps
although i only play one game on this map (with T_T)
it seems that it's a bit difficult to break the defend line due to the present of mountain and sea......
and more important is, no city will loss by the defend system (red line)
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
difficult in breaking defend system may led the players trend to defend and the game become bored........
ps: sorry for english grammar mistakes...

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:42 am

No worries for any english grammar mistakes, any and all feedback is appreciated. On the subject of Arcadepunk, the design of the 2 bases versus 1 base and 1 airport on the sides is a classic map making technique to help limit those kinds of stalemates, at least that's the intent, and in what games I've played and watched on it, it hasn't been too much of an issue yet. I also think that because it's a newer map, at least when compared to the rest of Persistent Maps, that some players might not be used to it yet.

But not to worry, that is definitely a potential problem that I'm aware of. Since the Persistent Maps are picked primarily for the older, high ranked, regular Global League players, and the Rotation maps are designed more for the newer players to the Global League, if enough players have problems with Arcadepunk, it may be swapped out for another map such as Masked Fury.

To clarify, Persistent Maps are going to be on the Global League for much longer periods of time than Rotation Maps (and hopefully we'll eventually get to a point where they don't need to be edited at all), however, Persistent Maps may still be edited if any significant problems arise due to their selection. Since this is a new idea, I expect that some parts will run smoothly and some parts may be a bit rough around the edges at the start. I will definitely announce if any changes to Persistent Maps are made early on though, based on what feedback the Map Committee receives. We're currently having the same discussions on the same subjects you players are bringing up, which is a good sign.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:21 am

Just a quick update, but we've added the Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps map categories on the AWBW site. Expect the Rotation Maps list to change a lot, so don't worry too much about the exact maps on them as of now. Any switches on the Global League will be announced here before it happens. Additionally, try to get as many players who currently play the Global League to drop by here, through private messages or however you maintain communication with them.

I want to have as many players as possible know about this change before it happens.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  chuma on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:14 am

Well, I'm a new league player, and this sounds like a good idea.

Sooo..... yeah back to playing now!
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  jackcool on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:31 am

It's a good idea to distinguish persistent maps and rotation maps.

I agree with joeli50. Arcadepunk is not as good as other persistent maps.
I think the following two maps can be candidates of persistent maps:
Highway To Hell
Coastal Conquest

I played on these two maps for several times and I encountered many novel strategies on these two maps. I think they deserve to be persistent maps.

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:22 am

Those are very good map suggestions that I've already considered jackcool, thank you, and I appreciate the feedback. That change might very well happen, as I think Highway to Hell in particular is a great map that adds a lot of good things to the Persistent Maps roster (which is not to say Arcadepunk does not, but you know what I mean).

Very tired right now though, sorry for the short post, but please feel free to continue to send feedback. I will respond as soon as I can get some sleep.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:49 am

Removed Arcadepunk and added Highway to Hell after having some time to sleep and think it over further. The Global League changes will likely be happening throughout today and tomorrow as I work out our first Global League rotation, starting by removing all but the Persistent Maps, then adding the first in the series of Rotation Maps.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:35 pm

Sorry for the forum downtime there for a few minutes, not sure what caused that. I've removed all but the Persistent Maps in preparation for the first Rotation Map setup.

The theme of the first selection of Rotation Maps will be maps where sea tiles, shoal tiles, and transports are often key to victory. These are traits that many competitive maps do not favor, and perhaps we will learn some new interesting ideas to be used in future competitive maps from their usage. The currently Rotation Maps are:

Broken Links
Brush With Death
Coastal Conquest
Dreadnaught
Phlogistic Rain

I'll likely edit this thread with pictures and links in the future, or start a new thread on the Rotation Map picks in general. Please post feedback on the Rotation maps when you can, the idea here is to have more maps that otherwise would likely not be picked as Global League maps and instead pick them as temporary Global League maps. As these maps are not nearly as well tested or as commonly played as the Persistent Maps, problems may arise. If they do, please post any and all problems here so we can adjust the maps accordingly if need be.

Thank you for all of your messages on AWBW and your feedback here. Thank you for bearing with the Map Committee as we begin to enact these changes. This is merely Step 1 in a series of steps I plan on taking to revitalize the AWBW scene. Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps will set the framework for Step 2 and beyond. Stay tuned.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:53 pm

Just a quick update, but the next map rotation will be coming soon. To clarify once again, Persistent Maps will remain mostly the same for as long as a year or more, but Rotation Maps will ideally change once a month. Since the last change was [12 Oct 2014], I'd like to get another change rolling at around the same time this month, which is about 4 days away.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:03 am

Another quick update, but I'll unfortunately be very busy today. I have the maps I want to add to the next rotation done in my head, I just haven't had the time to finalize those numbers and settings on the AWBW site yet. The next rotation will be all about Hall of Fame maps, so expect the well-liked Sahara to have an appearance again in the near future.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:52 pm

Starting the second Rotation Map set of this season today. So far, Dreadnaught and Phlogistic Rain are removed, and Sahara will be added. I'll finish up removing the rest of the first set and adding the second set throughout the day, hopefully. From the feedback I have received, Broken Links and Brush With Death were very well liked, and Coastal Conquest was appreciated as a temporarily returning classic map. Those will also be rotated out throughout the day as I get the next set of maps rotated in.

So far, the general idea is to usually feature one to three newer maps, one classic map, and the rest of the slots get filled with maps that have unique concepts or a unique dynamic to them. Oftentimes these categories overlap, but we want to be sure to include a variety of maps for each rotation.

This sets up really good data for the next Season of Permanent Maps, where we look at what was liked, what was disliked, and do small edits to the Permanent Maps based on that feedback. Who knows, maybe a map like Broken Links or Brush with Death could eventually see play in Permanent Maps in the future. That's the whole idea here, to both keep things fresh and also maintain a balanced metagame.

Hopefully you all are excited for 5 new maps in the Rotation Map list Very Happy
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:21 am

The theme for the December Rotation Maps is: Classic Mapper Appreciation

October-November was a combination of both newer and older maps, and many of the lesser known maps like Broken Links and Brush With Death were greatly appreciated by the community. We'll revisit some new and wild ideas in January in the same vein of those maps, but for December, AWBW will take the time to appreciate three mappers that helped to make the Global League and the Map Committee what it is today. Without these community members and their help, advice, and criticism, I would have never stuck with the game for this many years. Those mappers are Hellraider, Ultra Storm, and Walker Boh. The Global League already features many of their maps, but, for this month only, it will feature a few more.

The December maps are:


  • A Questionable Strategy
  • Moment of Clarity
  • Nightmares Echo In My Head
  • Sahara
  • Upping The Ante


By popular request, Sahara makes a return, along with a few other classics. These will stay for this month only, and then be rotated out for January's theme, which I'm pretty excited for as well. Please leave any and all feedback on these map choices, and good luck in your future Global League games!
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:53 am

January maps will be up soon, sorry for the delay!
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:53 pm

So the goal for January's Rotation maps was to find players that are currently not on the Map Committee and feature their maps. Yes, some of these maps are not as broken in as other competitive maps, but I purposefully was looking for some stuff that's balanced enough for Global League while still having some creative stuff going on.

I'm also trying to slowly push boundaries, like when I put A Questionable Strategy in last month's rotation. I want to find more crazy maps for Global League, within reason, of course.  

A Normal 1v1 (Design Map by tst5381)  
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=35134

Battle of Thermopyrae (Design Map by harsha)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=48058

Crossed Sparkles (Design Map by cryaciccl)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=64791

Scorpion Operation (Design Map by tst5381)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=48596

Twisted Fate (Design Map by BamboozleIII)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=63376

These guys makes a lot of great content, and you should definitely give their accounts a visit if you want more creative maps. Additionally, check out Excomotive and Xmo5. I just couldn't find the room for them in what I wanted to go live with this month, but they are also awesome mappers.

All of these maps should be live sometime in the next few hours.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:58 pm

As of now, all December maps are rotated out, and all January maps are rotated in.
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  WalkerBoh on Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:03 am

What sort of tier lists are you looking at for Crossed Sparkles?

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:12 pm

After Walker pointed out some potential issues with the tier lists for Crossed Sparkles, those settings and banlists will be hotfixed in a few hours. Stealths are potentially very overpowering on this map, and as such will be banned from future Global League games on this map. I am sorry for any inconvenience that this has caused. This issue should be fixed long before tonight's next Global League automatch is run.

Current Tier Lists, for reference, are at:

1282 Crossed Sparkles (Bottom Tier)
1283 Crossed Sparkles (High Tier)
1284 Crossed Sparkles (Mid Tier)

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Best Sakuya NA on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:01 am

Crossed Sparkles is hotfixed for tonight's Global League matches, thanks in large part due to some great work by Walker Boh. Stealths are now banned for that map, and a few commanders were shaken up a bit. I figure this is a good opportunity to show just how some of the Map Committee decision making goes down. This might be just a one time thing, but I think this will help for AWBW players to see just how much we at the Map Committee care about keeping Global League settings interesting and competitive, and may give insight into our balancing processes.

WalkerBoh wrote:Crossed Sparkles
Current settings:
Bottom Tier - Jake, Jess, Sonja, Koal (1282)
Mid Tier - Adder, Andy, Grimm, Kindle, Rachel (1284)
High Tier - Drake, Lash, Max, Sami (1283)
Top Tier - Eagle, Hawke, Sasha, VB, Javier, Olaf, Sturm (N/A)

I would probably argue that Drake and Kindle should swap tiers (naval combat is relatively useless and just look at all those cities). Olaf and Sami also seem like reasonable swaps - Sami is especially deadly with mech spam and the threat of HQ capture. Olaf will get beat D2D by any of the other High Tier CO's, and it's not clear to me that his SCOP is such an autowin with the relatively snow-proof terrain and short resupply distances.

I would also be really tempted to see Grit in the High Tier setting. I don't see him winning any matchup against the Top Tier CO's, and would even be really tempted to take Sami, Max, or Lash over him. Just a thought, but this map seems like a good opportunity to include him, with the prevalence of tank spam and air units.

So my tiers would look like:
Bottom Tier - Jake, Jess, Sonja, Koal (no change)
Mid Tier - Adder, Andy, Grimm, Rachel, Drake
High Tier - Kindle, Lash, Max, Olaf, Grit
Top Tier - Eagle, Hawke, Javier, Sasha, Sami, VB, Sturm


If you would like to test these new settings outside of the Global League, the exact settings for creating a game for Mid Tier, High Tier, and Top Tier can be found below.

Mid Tier
High Tier
Top Tier

Testing these maps helps us out tremendously, as the Map Committee is relatively small compared to the greater AWBW playerbase in terms of manpower. Long time AWBW players may be surprised to see Grit playable on a Global League map. Hopefully, in the future, we'll be able to push even more variety like this into future patches, after careful consideration of course. The goal, again, is to keep things both interesting and competitive. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

As always, good luck and have fun in your future Global League matches!
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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  WalkerBoh on Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:42 pm

Yes, ideally we would be able to have lots of play-testing to support the CO tiers for each map, but it's just not possible. Unfortunately the best way to find errors is to throw the maps into the league - so if you DO find an error (like maybe Grit is still broken as hell on this map) please post about it here with an actual game link as evidence. I am more than happy to be proven wrong about any of the comments above.

Thanks!

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:41 pm

For those of you sitting on the edge of your seats waiting for an update, there has been a change to the current selection of Rotation maps:

Based on some feedback from Walker, Mori has decided to remove Crossed Sparkles from Global League, effective immediately. Replacement candidates are being investigated as I type.

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yes chuck em in and give em a run for the money

Post  Blanci on Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:54 am

WalkerBoh wrote:Yes, ideally we would be able to have lots of play-testing to support the CO tiers for each map, but it's just not possible. .... the best way to find errors is to throw the maps into the league - so if you DO find an error... please post about it here with an actual game link as evidence. I am more than happy to be proven wrong about any of the comments above.

i totally agree .... we need to wait for feedback from several players and get some concensus. Also ts not critical if tiers are not perfect ..we can chose and see good COs for ourselves and that is part of game.

Just wondering if we couldnt keep unsure maps a little longer.  For example Crossed Sparkles was removed very hastily? There is room and time to debate merits. More people need chance to try stuff out before jumping to conclusions. I actually think Crossed Sparkles may be okay and full of early action ..though perhaps not to all tastes. Walker forgot to mention above that he lost in league when playing on Crossed Sparkles and this can easily influence judgement (it is irrelevant if it did). And of course walker says he is happy to reconsider.

It is wierd maps like this which "bug" players, but actually it is such difficult challenges which surely make people stay and play more. (Hey.. like people who hang on in difficult relationships !!...  we humans  often simply do not know or understand what is best for us!)

 Many great players have left AWBW because they bored themselves to death by limiting the kind of games they were willing to play and  finally the resulting standoff maps are basically too slow and boring.

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

Post  WalkerBoh on Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:49 am

Blanci wrote:Walker forgot to mention above that he lost in league when playing on Crossed Sparkles and this can easily influence judgement (it is irrelevant if it did).
That I lost has nothing to do with my judgment of the map. In fact, it would be hard to find a League map that I have not lost on (most multiple times!). Smile

I was actually quite skeptical of Crossed Sparkles before adding it to the League, but I needed to see a couple games on it before I could confirm my first impression. You may disagree with me on what type of gameplay a "good" map should encourage (this can be quite subjective, I admit), but to me the map had far too many contested properties, narrow fronts, and lack of options for defense or movement. This leads to rather linear games (I think my exact wording was "infantry collisions that lead to tank collisions"), which was not interesting the first time I played it, and I cannot imagine having to play on it more than once. The map itself is not unplayable or anything, but I don't think it is nearly up to the standard of any other League map.

Between my original impression, my game, and the 2-3 other running games I looked at, this was the conclusion I came to. It is admittedly a small sample size, but I doubt the majority of players will experience much other than what I saw. However, as mentioned before, I am open to being proven wrong.

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rotation map exposure time

Post  Blanci on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:53 am

I guess a detailed discussion of crossed sparkles should be in design map forum and also I want to play it and get some feedback from others too first before giving probably more subjective comments.
But I think we can give maps a bit more leeway, give them a bit longer before dismissing them. Especially maps which have some originality and possibly new or even wierd game strategy requirements.

Related but separate issue which really belongs in this thread is that  only one month for rotation maps seems very little opportunity to play on them. I only got to play one of them from the last bunch even though I was running with 4 games simultaneously.  Can't we wait for feedback from players before getting rid of them? I was looking forward to play those maps as clearly they had been chosen for being a little unusual. I will have to cut my number of league games to give time to set up public games to try them, and also to try some limited heavy start fund games also pending. Though I much prefer automated league game generation which also gets nice mix of opponents and is just easier all round.

Even temporary rotation maps need to hang around for 3 months or more. That's little time at awbw. It would be good to hear other players experiences regarding this.

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Re: Persistent Maps and Rotation Maps

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