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Manipulating Money

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Manipulating Money

Post  theether on Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:00 pm

In a hypothetical setting where we had free reign over all rules, what meaningful ways of manipulating  are there?

  • Fixed income, so you get x per round plus something for every property.
  • Properties could create different income, for example per citiy +1000, port +0, airport -1000 and factory -3000
    That way going for factories first wouldn't be a no brainer.
  • Units that steal money while on or around enemy's properties
  • Money lying around, the first to move a unit (only Infantry types?) to the field it's on gets x money
  • Gold Mine, a terrain field where an Infantry can mine for x*HP money per turn. Mining would be done as long as the Infantry stands on the mine.
  • (by Xmo5) Capturing properties gives you x money, possibly stealing it from the former owner

If you have more ideas, please tell me.
I'll edit your suggestions into this post, maybe it'll be interesting for the creators of AW-like games. Smile


Last edited by theether on Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  Xmo5 on Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:37 pm

When I was reading the LIHF thread I had the thought that it would be cool to have (in addition to the normal income) a capture reward value for certain properties. So while it might cost 3k/turn to own a factory, you might get a bonus 5k for capturing it to begin with. Cities might have a low capture value, but bases, labs, (air)ports, and maybe towers would have a high value. It's sort of like "This factory contains equipment worth $#.## and it now belongs to you."

Similarly, if you lost a city, you would lose that bonus and your opponent would gain that bonus (just as if they stole/captured an asset worth that amount of money). I think that would have really interesting consequences on gameplay and if properly balanced it could even be plausible for competitive play.

The reason I thought of it with respect to LIHF was because I thought it would help balance the HF part (and encourage infantry) if players got it in increments for capturing certain properties. In other words, you each got 10k every time you captured a city but the cities gave normal daily income. You'd slowly accrue your 200,000 "starting funds" in a way that could be governed like a typical capture phase. It would also push for serious attempts at capturing contested neutral properties. Obviously this is all wishful thinking, but its what went on in my head nonetheless.

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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  Everdan on Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:08 am

I think it might be cool if income from a city increased/decreased over time, let's say 1.5k for the first 5 turns, 1k for the next 5 turns, 500 per turn after that. Or you could have it the other way round, 500 first, then 1000, then 1.5k. Both mechanics affect strategies quite heavily (e.g. for the first one you could get a sudden burst of income by synchronising your captures to end at the same time, while the second one prioritises early capture over rushing for properties.)

More generally, I think the income of a city can depend on a "happiness" factor e.g. if your citizens aren't happy, they won't work as hard, and you get less income. Happiness could be affected by several things like which side currently has more troops (being outnumbered is bad for morale), how many times the city changed control (contested cities would be less happy), how many troops you destroyed in the last turn (if you just had a big victory, your citizens would be happier) or any kind of rule, really. It'd add a new flavour to the game.

I like the idea of airports, ports and cities having "maintenance costs", and I also like the "mining" idea. Aside from "gold mines" etc, you could replace the single currency ("gold") with multiple resources like "food", "steel", "coal/oil". E.g. producing an infantry might require 10 food, while producing a tank requires 20 food + 30 steel + 20 oil. Then have specialised properties which produce each or a combination of each, and "exchange centres" where you can trade your excess resources for stuff you need.

I've always felt that AW ignores the economics of war far too much (with battles that can last forever and an infinite supply of footsoldiers). It's fun I guess, but it doesn't give you that sense of realism, that sense of urgency, that sense of how protracted wars can drain a country's economy. These would all be good ways in which economics (and maybe even a little bit of politics) could be added into the game.


P.S.

Not really related but I think it would be pretty cool to have units that can destroy cities (properties?) and units that can "build" (neutral) properties. These have to be strictly pre-deployed, like Oozium, but it would make for interesting games e.g. if each player had the choice of where to build 3 of his cities and the option to destroy his opponent's critical cities. Though I guess it's a bit redundant if you can simply capture the enemy's cities, but still a thought. That way you could build a city near the front line to give you a parking spot and increase your repairing abilities, or build it near your base to protect it from capture. Would be quite fun IMO.

This also isn't really related, but I think you should be able to deploy footsoldiers from cities. It makes sense, doesn't it? i.e. you need factories and specialised equipment to build tanks, planes, arties, etc. but you can recruit infantry and mechs from the native populations of cities. Maybe set a limit on how many can be recruited each turn or some other limit to prevent flooding, but it'd give cities more strategic importance. (Or you could make a new type of property that can only deploy such units. Would be fun)

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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  Xmo5 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:11 am

A lot of that sounds really cool, actually.

Everdan wrote:More generally, I think the income of a city can depend on a "happiness" factor e.g. if your citizens aren't happy, they won't work as hard, and you get less income. Happiness could be affected by several things like which side currently has more troops (being outnumbered is bad for morale), how many times the city changed control (contested cities would be less happy), how many troops you destroyed in the last turn (if you just had a big victory, your citizens would be happier) or any kind of rule, really. It'd add a new flavour to the game.

This sounds a lot like what's done in Hex Empire which, if you're not familiar with it, is a similar turn-based game. It has cities and things, but units appear on cities you own by default at the end of every turn- you're limited by 5 moves per turn as well. Units increase in strength by joining or being reinforced by being on a city at the end of a turn and have two key stats: Strength and Morale. Morale is very similar to what you described and will increase as your turn goes on to a max value of whatever your unit's strength value is (both stats can have a max of 99). Here, morale counts as attack points and when units challenge each other, the one with the highest combined morale/strength wins so you might want to capture a few cities to boost morale before making key attacks- even the victor of an attack loses strength/morale equivalent to the values of the defender (so a 99/99 attacker would end with 1/1 if they attacked a 98/98). Anyway, fun little game to kill some time on that uses a similar morale system.

Everdan wrote:Aside from "gold mines" etc, you could replace the single currency ("gold") with multiple resources like "food", "steel", "coal/oil".

Sounds a lot like Age of Empires and/or other RTS games I'm less familiar with. Definitely adds a new dimension to the game because you might have to pay more attention to different areas of the map to ensure you get a good balance of resources. Similar to AOE 3, you could make the resource exchange a net loss (so 50 food = 40 gold and 50 gold = 40 food) to encourage proper proportioning of resource gathering. Alternatively (or additionally), each transfer makes it worse and worse of a deal. So trade 1 might be 50 food to 50 gold, but the next time might be 55 food for 50 gold. Each time it would go up, making the reverse trade more and more attractive. Later on you might have enough gold and be trading 50 gold for 65 food because of all the food-->gold conversion you did earlier. That might really add an interesting twist on the meta, especially if the map is specifically designed to limit early access to one kind of resource while making it overly abundant later.

The destroying/building cities aspect might be kinda cool too. Do you hold off and place it in a key location, or do you build it right away and get the extra funding? Or maybe there can be specific "empty lots" where you can build cities and you have 2-3 different options. Destroyed cities could turn into empty lots or something.

Despite being 100% hypothetical, I'm really enjoying this thread. Everyone's coming up with cool ideas to think about Smile

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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  IPS on Sat May 02, 2015 12:27 pm

I got some ideas based on things I've seen in a game named Age of Wonders for interactuations with your cities, neutral and enemy cities.

1) Capture: works as normal capture in AW games.
2) Destroy: you can start a process of destroying a property which will take 2 turns, you can't destroy your own properties. On 1st phase property gives half income and has only 1 repair power, at the 2nd turn of the process, it becomes neutral ruins of property. Only land units can destroy, must be an artillery or more expensive to can do this. Any unit can move then do the order "destroy". Destroying process is marked as [1/2] and [2/2] so means damaged unit can take aswell these 2 turns. Destroying property can have consecuences.
- At the 1st phase of destroying a property makes people to be upset of you, and all your properties between a radius of 8 will no longer repair your units.
- At the 2nd phase of destrying a property, make any property to be anger againist you from being a such beast. In all the next 3 turns, ANY property between a radius of 12 will damage destroyer's units by 2 points (likely urban blight works), your own cities will repair the units after the damage is done, resulting in a loss of funds.
- Then also, ruins of property can be rebuilt later by any player.
- Destroying processes hurts your units in the process. The weaker they are, the higher the damage will them recibe. Some explanations to this point would been:
a) A tank at 10/10 starting a destroying process become to 9/10, but a tank at 4/10 that is destryoing a property becomes to 2/10. If the unit got the order to destroy the property but dies before finishing, the property is not destroyed and mantains at phase [1/2]
b) A Md.Tank at 10/10 won't be hurt doing this process, even if it would been at 7/10, but if that MD tank is on 4/10 it becomes to 3/10 ... and if that MD tank is  at 2/10, there is a chance (not 100%) that the MD tank dies before doing the labor.
c) A mega tank at 1/10 is totally invulnerable to destroying's damage on that property because anger civilians doesn't own at all miltary weapons.
d) Fragible units that can do this labor such as Artillery, Rockets and even Missiles can do this labor, but are less cost efficent for this because they take higher damage than a tank would. Indirect destroying is not allowed due during direct destroying you do not kill that many civilians as if done with indirect, appart if that were possible consecuences would been even more terrible than with direct destroying.
e) Damaged but not destroyed factories/ports/airports are denied to build most expensive units, allowing factories to build up to A.Air as most expensive unit, Airports building up to B.Copter and Ports up to Lander.
- You can also destroy 1 improvement over that city per turn as another option, stuff that doesn't have consecuences. See below at Improves. You can't become a factory to a city as an example.
3) Improve: you can improve your already owned properties at the cost of funds of you. Suggested improvements would been these:
- Income boost I: +500 funds per turn. Costs 4000 funds (pays itself at 8 turns)
- Income boost II: +1000 funds per turn. Costs 6000 funds (pays itself at 12 turns)
- Repair power I: +1 repair capacity each turn. Costs 6000 (liable for aditional costs)
- Repair power II: +2 repair capacity each turn. Costs 9000 (liable for aditional costs)
- Cheap reapair I: repair costs decreases to 66% base costs, costs 9000.
- Cheap repair II: repair costs decreases to 50% base costs, costs 6000.
- Become it a Factory: Costs 65.000 (unthinkable, exceptly if you're rich and need somewhere a new factory)
- Become it a Port/Airport: Costs 100.000.
- Upgarades of repair power/costs would cost only 60% than on a city.
- Effficent building: Makes that factory, airport or port build units for only 90% of their price (makes you a kind of Hachi on that one builder), if Colin buys this his units would cost 80%x0.9 = 72% instead 70% or if Kambei does 120%x0.9 = 108%. This improve costs 10.000 and pays itself when you've bought 100.000 funds worh on units on that factory/port/airport.
4) Loot: you can loot enemy/neutral cities (unit builders doesn't generate funds for itself), only infantries can loot and need to be over that city each turn. Cities generates 1000 funds to itself and this amount saved on them is showed to any player. Looting allows to the player to obtain 5% of the city's funds, also looting 3 or more makes people anger. Looting characteristics:
- If you loot 3 turns consecutively, at the 3rd time your infantry has looted it losses 2 hp, if loots in the next turn then it recives 4 damage, then 8, then 16 (instant kill, when lost that infantry looting is only 2.5% of city funds at the cost of loosing that infantry, you can't loot the same city twice a turn). You can mix infantries after looting.
- As a city is captured, 90% of these funds dissapear, but gives you consistent income each turn.
- Improves over your cities decrease the city's funds by the amount you have paid! (consider this if you don't want to make rich your enemies rich of looting your cities's funds that you do not have acess to!)
5) rebuild: you can rebuild a damaged property [1/2 of damaged process] by paying only 1/4 of it's complete rebuild value. Only infantries are allowed to give the order to rebuild. Rebuild costs wouold been these:
- Rebuild as City: 8.000 funds (pays itself in 8 turns, but allows you to repair your units)
- Rebuild as Factory: 80.000 funds (city to factory is only 73.000 funds)
- Rebuild as Airport/Port: 112.500 (city to Airport/Port is only 103.000 funds)
- Rebuild as com.tower: 80.000 funds (notice you can't become a city to com.tower, only from rebuilding ruins)
6) Reload Silo: with an fantry on an empty silo you are free to reload that Silo with a missile at the cost of 35.000 ready to be used in your next turn! (global range!, most frequently cost ineficent option)
7) Farm the city: It's similar to loot, but can be done on your own Cities. By standing an infantry there, at doing this you can make that city generate +250 funds for you and decreasing City's funds by -250... by doing nothing else than standing an infantry and doing this constantly! It's more likely a crap option excepr if:
- Your city is closer to enemy infantries but you want to hold an infantry on it, you can farm it and positionate your defender infantry and all that for a bonus of +250 funds... yey...

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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  theether on Sat May 02, 2015 1:19 pm

Interesting. AW never really had terrain change in it (except maybe pipe seams).
And these ideas would work quite well.
I don't see why I would want to destroy any properties instead of capturing, though
Only maybe in order to rebuild as a factory/airport maybe, but as one can't destroy one's own property...
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Re: Manipulating Money

Post  Xmo5 on Sat May 02, 2015 11:21 pm

Interesting thoughts. I have some specific responses but I'm not in the best position to list them now but I will later. Very cool though.

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Re: Manipulating Money

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