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Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

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Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  matchet on Tue May 02, 2017 2:07 pm

After ~1h searching for a balanced 2v1 map, I gave up and decided to made my own.
Around 14h later (no lies), this jewel was finished. It is expected to be pretty balanced (one of the few, if not the only one, 2v1 made to be balanced)

If image is not scaled, you can redone the link and load a tab with it:
h ttp://i.imgur.com/MedjidK.gif


Recomended settings:
Fog of War: ON
Bans: Broken 5 (Hachi, Colin, Kanbei, Sensei,Grit)
Time/Capture: N/A
Weather: Random
Unit Bans: N/A (Piperunner)
Teams: Cobalt Ice + Grey Sky Vs Red Fire (2 vs 1)

The map is new and needs brave heroes to test it and report their impressions
and suggestions to improve it. Dont forget to enjoy the game too!
Ratings will be also much apreciated

MAP LINK: (EDIT: New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information.
Ok, just redone the following link to use it:
h ttp://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=70945
You can read much more about balancing, analysis & strategy within the comments of the map's webpage


changelog:

Actual version: 1.2
- Pipes from RF's sides became destroyed to keep him up in middle game where seems that he could got down in income differences
- Added a light FTA counter (preowned bases for CI and GS in RF's island

about me:

The story of my journey around AW became around 15 years ago, with Advance Wars for my GBA. I enjoyed the map editor the most, though never have had the pleasure to find other than IAs to play in it. In the recent five years ago, AWbw came to my sight and got a couple of funny months. Around a month ago, the web came to my mind again and decided to give a new time to it. Is awesome to see that when a strategy game is good enough, activity keeps happening even after the web stability's and the getting-old's problems.
For this new return, I tried to make maps with much more thinking behind it. Not just a simmetry spawn. If I get some apreciation, maybe I'll get the enough will to keep doing lovely maps for the community. Good designing is not easy or pleasant to do

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  Xmo5 on Wed May 03, 2017 12:02 pm

Hi Machet,

You've clearly put a lot of thought and effort to designing this map, so I want to give you some feedback on how I think it will play out in the interest of making this the best map it can be.

First, I'm worried about the number of bases. RF gets 9, plus 2 airports and 8 ports. Each of the other players gets 5 bases, 1 airport, and 3 ports. There are also 2 other bases that I'll get to later. This leaves an income of around 5k per base, which is just at the low end of what tends to work out well. Any lower and you get infantry spam because the AWBW meta is to fill all your bases with infantry, while an income that's too high can lead to overexposed units, overpowered units, or even a prematurely abandoned capture phase. Any of these problems make it difficult to have a smooth battle experience; on one end you have stale battles where nobody can progress, while on the other you have haphazard, overpowered units mindlessly hacking away at each other.

Now, while an income of 5k per base is not bad by itself, you have to take into context the other components of the map that will have similar impacts on gameplay. First, you have a lot of ports and airports which will draw money away from land units, making players more likely to build infantry so they can also afford a copter. On top of that, the terrain favors air units by being so narrow, which also makes swarms of infantry even more obstructive. As a result, I'm worried that with the high number of bases and the map style, you will end up with infantry spam on the very chokey pathway, restricting the battle.

In order to fix this I recommend:

  • Remove 1-2 bases per player
  • Open up the pathway to be less chokey
  • Provide alternative routes, rather than forcing all land units down a single path
Now, moving on to those 2 extra bases I mentioned earlier. The ones I'm referring to are the ones at the top and bottom edge, about halfway between enemies, that are at the end of the 3 road tiles. These bases should be the first to go because they are very contested, meaning that it's not clear who would end up with them. In general, we try very hard to design maps to avoid this because it emphasizes imbalances in the map and makes it easier for one side to take advantage of the other player, giving them an unfair advantage.

On the other hand, I think there are too few contested cities, or at least cities that could be attacked and captured. Most of your income is safe back on the mainland, but the only place the opponent(s) can attack is the thin stretch of land around the outside with only a few cities on it. This means that pushing your opponent back, all the way to their nearest base, will only gain you a small advantage, and it's unlikely to give you the momentum you need to finish the job. They will probably repel your attack and you'll proceed back and forth without ever making any true progress unless the players are of very different skill levels. I recommend that, in addition to the changes above, you expand the battleground so that it has more significant targets to attack and capture, making an offensive strategy worthwhile.

Lastly, I'll just add that I wouldn't expect naval warfare to be a big factor. Most of the time, naval units are so expensive that you'd probably make more progress if you put that money into land units instead. You might see some exceptions with battleships here since they have major potential to help out with the land battle, but they can probably do so from very safe positions, discouraging much of a need for open naval warfare.

Oh! I almost forgot to mention balance/FTA. First, remove the preowned cities and instead give each GS and CI a predeployed infantry on the base closest to their neutral base. This is the best FTA counter here, though it's not perfect since each battle has only one front. We can revisit this if you make edits. Anyway, an important thing to consider is that 2v1 battles require a special type of balance. Simply giving teams equal number of properties is not fair because the single player team has the option to consolidate their income and make larger purchases. For example, a 20k player vs 2 10k players has the easy option of buying a rocket on one front and infantry on the other, while doing the reverse the next turn. The 10k players have no counter for a rockets unit unless they save up an extra 50% of their income at a bare minimum, and the single player can save up more easily for other big purchases like neotanks, bombers, etc, that are well outside of the purchasing range of the individual 10k players. To compensate for this, the single player team usually gets a few less cities, such that there isn't a drastic difference in the tech level of unit purchases.

Okay, now I'm done. Hopefully this is helpful. If you have any questions, just let me know and I'll be happy to try and clarify. También, te recomiendo que leas esto porque el autor es muy brillante  Wink :

http://www.takeyourturn.net/t877-map-making-guide-i-introduction-to-awbw-map-design

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  Xmo5 on Wed May 03, 2017 12:09 pm

Oh, by the way, I'm guessing you have a hard time getting the map to display properly. If so, I suggest the following fix:


  • Click on "User Info" on the AWBW menu
  • Click the box next to "AWBW Theme" to open the option list
  • Select Advance Wars 1
  • Click "Update"
  • Check your (or any) map again
  • Celebrate Yaaay

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  ichbinsehselber on Wed May 03, 2017 4:31 pm

Xmo5 wrote:
Anyway, an important thing to consider is that 2v1 battles require a special type of balance. Simply giving teams equal number of properties is not fair because the single player team has the option to consolidate their income and make larger purchases. For example, a 20k player vs 2 10k players has the easy option of buying a rocket on one front and infantry on the other, while doing the reverse the next turn. The 10k players have no counter for a rockets unit unless they save up an extra 50% of their income at a bare minimum, and the single player can save up more easily for other big purchases like neotanks, bombers, etc, that are well outside of the purchasing range of the individual 10k players. To compensate for this, the single player team usually gets a few less cities, such that there isn't a drastic difference in the tech level of unit purchases.
Agree. Furthermore the CO meter of the single player fills faster which is usually an advantage. (Assuming that in the game settings powers are on)

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  Xmo5 on Wed May 03, 2017 4:39 pm

ichbinsehselber wrote:Furthermore the CO meter of the single player fills faster which is usually an advantage. (Assuming that in the game settings powers are on)

Indeed!

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  matchet on Thu May 04, 2017 4:20 am

Thanks for all the analysis here! It is really interesting to read. I whish you reply some of your topics, lets go:

- About possible infantry spam and air superiority: your tremors can become true, but take in mind that there is a map so large that initial bases should be enough far away to be unable to keep a constant soldier flow through north or south lateral isles, except if you manage as a single player to get two of the two bases within those lateral isles (just a way to push or keep the zone with ease for ending purposes). Plus, team of two has to break the pipe or build one or two lander/t.copter to access to these islands with lands units. Air units plays an important role in this map for sure, as sea should too. Dont see it as something bad, though

- About "safe" income within main land: I agree about this point, and some cities would be moved to more contested zones (which ones exactly, will let me know the currently testing). By the other hand, I consider that the map is big enough to allow surprise captures in isolated and "considered safe" zones, and I'll try to improve this possibility in the future with those cities being moved away from main island. Anecdotic-talking now, the three mini-islands in the middle initially contained one control tower each, but I rapidly abandoned the crazy idea.

- About low use of naval: I want to believe that there is enough strategic positions to support battleships to make them crucial in choke points (I'll add more reefs in the future update too). More income for everyone wont help because as you said, wont make more ships appear but more air and land. Not much to do against the meta except removing airports and I dont want to do it

- About 2v1 balancing issues: As said in map analysis, the single player has not double the buildings the team of two has in total, it has less (20+20 vs 31 in each one's main islands), plus there is a bit more dispersion in the single player's dominions which could slow his capturings. When capture phase is almost ended, however, its expected to be a fight in each lateral islands while RF has to care about the middle island where his HQ is (thus, I agree about the idea of making it more vulnerable in the future edit). Ending the topic, after capture phase is expected to team players to have ~23-26 buildings each and single player to have ~40-46 buildings but ending his capture phase a bit more late than them. A point to the poor single player is his ability to build his COP bar faster and to deploy all his funds in one lane. Test games will say if these diferences can merge in a unusual way of balance or not


- AW1 Theme and map image being missing: this is a shamely way to "fix" it, since AW2 and AWDS has animations and a much nicer look than this ugly skin. Marriner should look it up and fix the web, it shouldnt be harder to do. btw, the needing of a web revamp/rebirth/restart is off this topic.

Sorry if my English isnt perfect. Not my main lang.
Ah, y esa guía fue lo primero que me leí del foro cuando entré. Está bien hecha. Me será útil en el futuro

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

Post  Xmo5 on Thu May 04, 2017 3:04 pm

There's a lot to address here.

matchet wrote:
- About possible infantry spam and air superiority: your tremors can become true,

Primero, aunque se usa "temer" (o temor) en español, no es un cognado directo. En inglés, decimos "fear", pero en esta frase, yo usaría "concerns" o algo más parecido a "preocupación".

matchet wrote:but take in mind that there is a map so large that initial bases should be enough far away to be unable to keep a constant soldier flow through north or south lateral isles, except if you manage as a single player to get two of the two bases within those lateral isles (just a way to push or keep the zone with ease for ending purposes). Plus, team of two has to break the pipe or build one or two lander/t.copter to access to these islands with lands units. Air units plays an important role in this map for sure, as sea should too. Dont see it as something bad, though

I don't think the distance will help very much. The problem is with how narrow the battlefront is.



In this image of the battlefront, everything marked with an x is a place where a single unit can block an entire path by itself. On the left, there are two paths, which is better than the single path on the right, but the fact remains that this makes it very easy to block the entire enemy line by placing a couple infantry properly. Advance Wars is designed around land battles, and for reasons that would be a bit off topic here, maps don't work well when they're designed to be heavily driven by air/naval warfare with only a minor land unit role. You can read my commentary on this map and this map to get an idea of what I mean, though it only partially applies here.

What I'm getting at here is that the land battle will have a hard time moving forward smoothly, which will force you to resort to mostly air and naval battle, which does not function very well with AW game mechanics. The point I make about funding is mostly to say that "This funding level will result in a higher-than-average number of infantry" to point out that that makes the true issue more significant.

matchet wrote: By the other hand, I consider that the map is big enough to allow surprise captures in isolated and "considered safe" zones, and I'll try to improve this possibility in the future with those cities being moved away from main island.

I would be careful with this thought process. If you mean that enemies might sneak over water or air and land back in "safe" territory to capture properties, I wouldn't consider it in your map analysis for a couple reasons. First, even with Fog of War, it's extremely difficult to land units in enemy territory and mount a successful invasion when you're playing against real people. Most of the time you lose your units, since they are vulnerable for a turn, and sometimes you lose your transport too. Even if you succeed once in a while, it's rarely worth the cost of a potential failure; that funding is much better spent fighting the battle almost all of the time. Defending is just way too easy, and this is why island warfare never works well on AWBW (which I discuss in the example maps I provided above). Second, whatever ground you gain, you will almost always automatically lose again. Now, in most battles, this could be good because it draws attention away from the main battle and forces your opponent to redirect units to capture his cities back (after you've "stolen" only ~4k income, minus the cost of the units you lose). Here, the battlefront is so narrow that it's easy for them to stall and lose no ground while they quickly take back what they lost, so the advantage you gain is almost 0, even if you do succeed.

matchet wrote:- About low use of naval: I want to believe that there is enough strategic positions to support battleships to make them crucial in choke points (I'll add more reefs in the future update too).

There are, the problem is they're way too easy to defend. The only counter will be air units and there won't be a big naval war over good battleship positions.

matchet wrote:More income for everyone wont help because as you said, wont make more ships appear but more air and land. Not much to do against the meta except removing airports and I dont want to do it

On the contrary, adding more income does make people by naval units. Think about it this way: You have money to spend on units. Land units are the most important (which I discuss above) and the cheapest unit type, so definitely buy as many of them as possible. Having more units is better, and that's why the AWBW meta encourages people to never leave a base empty, except in rare cases. Then, once you've decided what land units to buy, you have to decide where else to spend the money. You probably don't have a lot left over, so you go for a cheaper air unit, and not a naval unit. You might even prefer to get a more expensive air unit instead of a typical naval unit. Naval units are soooo expensive that you would never really want to buy them unless you had nothing else to do with your money. To put yourself in this position, would you rather buy: 1 bcopter, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 recon, and 2 infantry, or just a single battleship? Both cost the same 28k, but I guarantee you that the first list of units is more useful because 1) Having more units is almost always better, and 2) These units can form a very effective, versatile group that accomplishes many different tasks, while the battleship is very limited, even though it's so powerful.

The point is that increasing funding is the only real way to encourage naval combat. They're expensive and nobody's going to buy a lot of naval units instead of land units if they have to make a choice.

matchet wrote:- AW1 Theme and map image being missing: this is a shamely way to "fix" it, since AW2 and AWDS has animations and a much nicer look than this ugly skin. Marriner should look it up and fix the web, it shouldnt be harder to do. btw, the needing of a web revamp/rebirth/restart is off this topic.

Personally, I prefer the AW1 theme because the colors look more vibrant, but I agree 100% that this isn't really a "fix". Unfortunately, amarriner has been tied up with other projects; I've communicated with him a bit about the ongoing issues (of which there are many), but the fixes have stopped coming. I agree this is a different topic, so I'll leave it at that.

matchet wrote:Sorry if my English isnt perfect. Not my main lang.
Ah, y esa guía fue lo primero que me leí del foro cuando entré. Está bien hecha. Me será útil en el futuro

No te preocupes. Te aseguro que hablas inglés mejor que yo hable español. (Does that need subjunctive?) Hace unos años podía hablar casi fluentemente, pero hoy en día es dificil recordar la mayoría de lo que aprendí.... vocabulario... conjugaciones... reglas gramaticales... Necesito pensar y lentemente construir mis frases pero todavía no estoy seguro de que todo este correcto. (Does this need subjunctive? Should I have used aún instead of todavía? Can I say "y aún" or "pero aún" ? See what I mean? Also, sorry if I miss accents... I have international keyboard set up at home, but here I have to copy and paste letters with accent/tilde/dieresis etc. so it's easier to miss them)

Y gracias por la palabra "foro". No estaba seguro de la palabra correcta.

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Re: Lungea's Archipielago [2v1][Fog][Balanced]

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