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Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi)

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Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi) Empty Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi)

Post  Iordor on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:26 pm

Hachi, Colin, and Grit are referred to as the Broken Trio because they are so overpowered that the only things capable of taking them down are Tag Breaks that are overpowered even for their already maddening level of brokenness. Granted, some things like Eagle's Lightning Drive in AWDS definitely fall in the category of broken, but the whole problem with the Broken Three is the COs overall.


Day-To-Day, Hachi has 90% costs for unit deployment and repairs, with no drawback. This isn't as bad as Colin's 80% costs, but the price reduction would have to require a counteracting weakness anyway, as one extra Infantry can be afforded for every 10000G worth of units built/repaired, which is a headache in and of itself with typically two, maybe more, extra units blocking the way and forcing precious attacks to be wasted.

This isn't so bad. Or it wouldn't be, if Hachi's COP Powers weren't so nightmarish. Barter cuts prices to 50%, for the typical 3 Stars. Merchant Union does that, but also throws in the ability to deploy land units on Cities for a measly (for an SCOP) 5 Stars.

First is Barter. 50% price cuts mean that high-tier land units are built for around the same prices as stuff like AA Tanks, and the Megatank can be deployed for only 14000G, which is less than anybody else's Large Tank, except Colin's. The real reason to use this over Merchant Union, however, is the maddening number of units Hachi can have to dominate the battlefield, particularly air and sea units, which can't be built from Cities anyway, are typically expensive, and force meter chargeups fast enough to have Merchant Union ready before long.

Merchant Union is also sick in land battles. Particularly if the Piperunner isn't banned (though the Piperunner is situational-broken anyway). With Merchant Union, any land unit can be deployed on a controlled City, even Piperunners despite their inability to move on Cities at all. This is made worse by the fact that Barter's price reduction is in effect as well. By the time the units built with Merchant Union are killed, Hachi will be able to use it again. This is a neverending spam that just can't be shut down, much like Sensei's Infantry or Mech flooding with enough Cities.

The only way to beat COs like Hachi is to erase the usefulness of their flooding abilities, and as to accomplishing that, there aren't many options, even the broken ones.


Which brings me to the Blue Moon sniper. While Grit doesn't get price cuts whereas his fellow members of the Broken Trio do, he doesn't need them. Not when he has one nasty ability that money can't buy and in fact is a candidate for being "priceless" on a MasterCard commercial: boosted maximum range for his ranged-fire units. It's +1 for Day-To-Day, in addition to a firepower boost. Which means his indirects will outrange anybody else's. This is a problem because Grit can still set up a defense effectively early on and rush attempts will fail because of infantry meatshields. In addition, the +1 range is one additional space that ignores terrain, making Grit already downright nasty on a closed space map.

What's even worse is that Grit can use his COP Powers to temporarily further boost the maximum range of his indirects, to +2 if he uses Snipe Attack, or +3 if it's Super Snipe. Snipe Attack is all Grit needs for his Artillery to match anybody's Rockets, and Super Snipe for them to match Battleships. This is sadistic on wide open maps as well with the dreaded wall being taken into account. And that's just Artillery.

Some might point out that Grit's effectiveness is seriously weakened by air units. Well, it is, but that's because the AA Missile Launcher is underpowered and there are no ranged-fire air units. Grit's AA Tanks still destroy choppers and cost-effectively waste Bombers. And AW doesn't support maps that are too air-heavy very well anyway, not with Fighter spams being possible.

At first, it seems Grit would suffer on maps heavy on navy and air units. After all, the Battleship and Aircraft Carrier both cost an arm and a leg, and every other air or sea unit that has a weapon loses firepower under Grit's command. But guess what? Grit's Cruisers still tear up air units and Submarines, and Submarines themselves lack any OHK ability worth talking about anyway. Also, Grit's own Aircraft Carrier also eliminates the Bomber's ability to move through the attack range in one turn, neutralizing air units overall. And as if that wasn't bad enough, CO Powers being charged up faster means that Grit can spam Snipe Attack or abuse Super Snipe to no end, making his fleet so capable of massacring everything that even approaches that it make DRAKE'S own armada punch walls in frustration from feeling powerless.

Needless to say, one can only imagine the madness that is Grit's indirects, and the only way to hope to beat them effectively will be to have an alarming number of units to kill off their guards.


The Richie Rich of Blue Moon does have that option, being able to deploy units at 80% costs. But his units also suffer stat penalties. Colin's brokenness, however, starts there, as the only Day-To-Day penalty is a measly 10% firepower reduction. This prevents 1HK, but that's unreliable anyway. 2HK is inhibited, but not much; 2 attacks each dealing 49% still kill the unit unless bad luck kicks in. Colin's deployment strategies, however, involves having appropriate counters readily available to capitalize on the lower costs, so seeing him give off matchups where his unit would normally deal anything lower than 65% isn't too common, only happening if he is in a situation where he wouldn't be seeking a 2HK.

Colin's lack of defense penalty makes his Day-To-Day even more nasty. Firepower changes do not affect several units, most noteably transports. APCs and Transport Helicopters in particular are the reason why Colin is imbalanced; they each cost 1000G less than the normal CO's respective transports, so Colin can build an Infantry to go with it. The transport has no weapons anyway and therefore Colin's doesn't have a weakness to go with the lowered cost. The Infantry has low firepower to begin with and therefore isn't punished much by firepower loss. Needless to say, it is not hard for Colin to meatshield like his fellow two members of the Broken Trio would.

Yet somehow, Intelligent System believes the little guy needs to have more, evident by the fact that Colin has not ONE, but TWO overpowered COPs. For only 2 Stars, Gold Rush increases Colin's money supply by 50%. Typically, this allows Colin to build higher tier units if he hasn't managed it already. This also considerably lowers the ratio of the opponent's total unit normal cost amount to Colin's, as if it even needs to be lower. The fact that Gold Rush is 2 Stars means that Double Gold Rush, and Quadruple Gold Rush if Colin uses a COP 10 times, is possible.

Power of Money is vicious in its own right too. Every 300G increases the firepower boost by 1%. 20,000G, which is plausible even without Gold Rush, means that firepower is boosted by about 66%, meaning above average matchups now become the bane of the opponents' existence. If Colin has 30,000G, he'll be the one calling the shots with superior numbers and enough matchups being IKs. Granted, it's already hard to guess Power of Money's true level of brokenness with Gold Rush and Colin's Day-To-Day already being demonic and feeding it, but even if Colin had 80% firepower and the parts of the formula involving COP firepower and defense changes was (100 + D2D ATK boost) * (100 + COP ATK boost) / ((100 + D2D DEF boost) * (100 + COP DEF boost)), Power of Money would still be overpowered.

Clearly, the Broken Trio is broken by virtue of being able to overwall with no consequence and then turtle their way to cheap victories. This wouldn't be a problem if it were possible to minimize floods' usefulness and destroy cheap meatshields without too much trouble. I think it would help to take care of both if there were units capable of attacking and then immediately moving much like mounted units in Fire Emblem 4, 5, and 9 can, though the trick would be balancing the units out. Still, they would at least be good for fighting against the Broken Trio, and one more CO who deserves to be on this list of broken COs:


Kanbei's aged teacher, AKA Mechs Merquise, AKA the Copter Count, AKA the Battle Copter Baron (/watched too much Gundam Wing) may lose firepower for his vehicles and vessels, but that doesn't stop him from being a nightmare. Daily, Sensei's foot soldiers have massive firepower boosts. Of course, this isn't that much since the only matchups where foot soldiers really make that much use of this are against each other or anything they have an advantage against anyway. But the real D2D kicker is the steroid helicopters. 150% attack power means that matchups with 45% or higher in Andy's case fricassee the units. Anti-Air Tanks can't really be used because of Mechs, and even if they could, if they're hit first, they still take considerable damage because of the attack jump. Granted, helicopters are helpless against Fighters (or any jets that can attack them, really), but the only way to get Fighters to effectively take them out is to last to the late game, something Sensei just wouldn't allow.

For a measly 2 Stars, Sensei's CO Power Copter Command makes Infantry on any Cities he owns that are unoccupied for free, although they'd be at 9 HPs. Most maps has each CO owning at least 5 Cities, which is enough to grant him 1/4 to 1/2 of a star if they're all wiped out. If Sensei has at least 15 Cities, then the power will self-feed. (This is even worse in Advance Wars Dual Strike.) And even without the self-feeding, the extra Infantry means more attacks have to be wasted, which allows Sensei to build up further if needed and barrage his opposition with a nasty counterattack in the meantime.

Airborne Assault, Sensei's Super CO Power, also has the same self-feeding trouble caused by Copter Command. (Not quite in AWDS, though; each Mech lost has the same compensation toward the COP Meter as each Infantry lost. Still, Mech losses boost the COP Meter a bit more than they did in AW2.) What it does is spawn Mechs; although abusing the SCOP provides fewer numbers, it provides units that can blast tanks for free, and meanwhile, those same units, being "damaged", can be Joined together for about a full day of income funding--particularly vicious on navy maps worth their weight, where the number of Cities is high enough to provide Sensei with over 15,000G this way. Airborne Assault also feeds Copter Command even with the Joining for funding being exploited, so killing the Mechs only serves to have the map flooded by Infantry.

I think this proves that flooding is a menace that must be stopped, as DTaeKim puts it.

12/4/2006 - Okay, so I am adding Kanbei to this list now. However, bear in mind that I do not, and I repeat DO NOT, think that he is altogether broken, although I'm pretty sure he can't be but a tier away, and the only thing stopping him is having price hikes and a lousy CO Power.


Yellow Comet's emperor has been debated as broken or not at AWBW. Personally, I think he isn't, though he is definitely overpowered in AW2 incarnation, and still so in AWDS. Though the game mechanics are more at fault for that.

Kanbei's units all cost 120% daily, which stops him from being officially broken. But why is he so close to it in AWBW? Simple: the compensation for higher prices is too high, at 130% ATK and DEF. 120% both is already pushing it, since in matchups in similar units, Kanbei already effectively finds himself getting simultaneous strike, at worst for him. While this should be the case due to his price increases, 130% just has him with a painful first strike edge. It is no longer detrimental if he loses the early game unless he does so by a large deal.

Morale Boost is mercifully weak, especially for its cost. At 4 Stars, all it really does is provide an attack boost. Granted, in AWDS it's actually large for a CO Power, but Kanbei does awful with attack boosts on their own, having fewer units that can make use of the attack boost on his turn and fewer units for his opponent to matchup properly. Needless to say, MB isn't something that could be making Kanbei broken or even close.

However, Samurai Spirit is doing that just fine. With 160% DEF, Kanbei's units take 40% of the normal damage, at the most. Worse yet, terrain boosts makes damage to units with already high DEF boosts drop like a lead weight. It's well past the halfway mark to a free turn, for 7 Stars. The counterattack boost is minor to the defense jump, the point of the power clearly being to give Kanbei time to build up while he's hammering at the foes' forces.

We may be thankful that Kanbei has to spend more money on each unit, but there's still balance issues with him, and they aren't necessarily his fault.

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Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi) Empty BROKEN FIVE

Post  Blanci on Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:35 pm

Should read.......... BROKEN FIVE. affraid

Interesting ideas in places but unfortunately this is partly out of date now... as is well known there are 5 brokens. Kanbei and Sensei both have very special powers which depending on map can dominate any CO and on almost all maps beat the usual COs easily.
there was a good explanation on old forum somewhere. Even kenbei can afford infantry and as most maps get lots of infantry kenbei strength wins infantry war even if he cant afford so many tank. Unit number importance favours kenbei.

A lot of the old forum wasnt too well organised and kept up to date. Years ago i asked juigi to update the title and edit article but i dont know why but he didnt . Maybe not yet convinced?
Kenbei may even be the strongest on many maps.


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Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi) Empty Re: Why Hachi, Colin, & Grit = broken and thus typically ban (By Juigi)

Post  Nyvelion on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:08 am

Ooh, the Broken "Trio". I was around for that... must have been so long ago. Until someone noticed everyone using Kanbei was winning.

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